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Physics discussion on Aether Propulsion

disk gradiant

Physics discussion on Aether Propulsion

lifted from ChiefIO blog

25 September 2018 at 5:08 am

@Jim2:

It is looking like pervasive “fields” are all that is real, and “particles” are just what you get when something pokes the field. (So a photon hitting the “electron field” causes the “electron particle” to come into being and changes the “2 slot” outcome to the particle form… )

Basically, if we don’t look then everything is a field. It is when we look that it becomes particles…

Isn’t QM fun? 8-} /sarc;

25 September 2018 at 5:49 am

“Basically, if we don’t look then everything is a field. It is when we look that it becomes particles…”
yup! pretty much sums it up. K.I.S.S. ! 😎 …pg

  • Simon Derricutt says:

25 September 2018 at 9:46 am

Maybe a lot of the problem with QM is that we can visualise waves OK, and we know about particles and how they collide, and neither the maths nor the visualisation work that well for something that is both at the same time. This isn’t helped by the Copenhagen interpretation, which tells us that it’s only when we look that the wave functions “collapse” into a single result from being indeterminate before we look. Given the age of the universe, and the lack of people to look and measure, it makes sense that things happen whether we look or not. That problem of only having a real result when someone measures it was got over with Bohmian Mechanics, where a “guiding wave” determines the position and direction of a real particle (which makes the wave and the particle there at the same time, and thus things can happen without anyone to measure them). However, this explanation wasn’t chosen, possibly because it effectively posits an Aether (the medium that the guiding wave exists in), and people were trying to go away from anything Aether-like. As I’ve said before, though, if you’re going to have waves of any sort, then as far as we can tell *something* will be waving, and a model with inertial minuscule particles with springs between them is bound to work for a lot of the properties. Basically, you can’t get away from some sort of Aether, even if you rename it as spacetime and say there can be waves in spacetime, unless of course you try to make a model where waves don’t exist and it’s only particles. Since a particle model isn’t going to match reality when it comes to diffraction unless you give the particles some wave properties, and again that implies something being waved, finding a non-paradoxical description has so far escaped us.

At the heart of QM we thus have paradox, which tells us we haven’t yet got a good description of what is actually happening. The models we’ve got mostly work pretty well despite the paradox, though, so it’s the best we’ve got at the moment and mostly we ignore the paradoxes and choose the description of particle or wave depending on which one gives the right answer. Another problem with current theory is that it has inconvenient infinities turning up in the maths. Where these turn up, the technique of “renormalisation” is used, which basically means we ignore the infinities and take them out of the equations, and the rest of the equation then gives the right answer. It’s a fudge, and wasn’t liked at the time it was introduced (can’t remember who by), but sorts the problem. http://www.volkerschatz.com/science/renorm.html . Wikipedia has a nice explanation, too, that goes quite a bit deeper.

One thing that bugs me about all this complex maths is that it’s logical that the particles/waves themselves don’t have the capacity to do all the partial derivatives and integrations to work out where they ought to be. They really should simply react to the forces they see at any point in time (here and now forces and what happens as a result) and though the resultant path may be a little complex such as a conic section, it still ought to be calculable using numerical simulation where we use timesteps and the configuration/forces at each point and thus step through positions of the constituent parts.

Of course, all these theories assume momentum is absolutely conserved in an interaction, and that apart from borrowing/returning to the Heisenberg energy bank, that energy is conserved too. That may not be a valid assumption. It’s almost certainly the net result after an interaction (we normally see energy and momentum conserved), but may not be valid during the interaction. If inertia is quantised (as seems to be true from cosmological observations) then this will apply at the particle level too, and rather than being a continuous range, momentum can only be exchanged (or changed) in quanta. It’s possible that this may change the maths quite a lot. A small force won’t thus affect the velocity (below the necessary force to jump to the next momentum level), and the path of a particle won’t be a smooth curve but instead a series of straight lines as the momentum has step-changes. I figure that might make some difference to the calculations….

Feynman was required reading when I was learning physics. He was good at explaining things, and where he found things that didn’t make sense he changed them so they did make sense. Probably killed a few sacred cows on the way, and his personal life was unconventional too. I see nothing wrong in watching his lectures for entertainment. I haven’t the time this morning, so I’ll watch them somewhat later. More fun than a Marvel blockbuster with fights between groups of people with magic powers.

25 September 2018 at 1:52 pm

@Simon; Excellent essay on the logic of the problem of waves that appear to be particles, particles that behave as waves. Quantaize the medium, Call it what you want. I prefer Aether and this results in Mass/Inertia being external to Mater, the thing that matters to me…pg

25 September 2018 at 2:30 pm

If you “kick” the Aether hard enough (voltage) and fast enough (frequency) It will kick back hard. Just like the results in a Tesla coil operation. If you are operating a cone shape field by pulsing a signal over a cone or saucer shape within the high voltage/high frequency field you are operating a linear motor within the activated Aether. Electronic Propulsion!…pg

8 responses to “Physics discussion on Aether Propulsion

  1. p.g.sharrow September 25, 2018 at 11:08 am

    Damn, I really need to set up the disk and the Great Tesla coil to test this.
    Even a car ignition coil could provide the linear pulse to the disk while the Tesla coil provides the voltage kick into the Aether…pg

  2. Sylvester Levin October 6, 2018 at 6:58 am

    When I originally commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added” checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get three emails with the same comment. Is there any way you can remove people from that service? Thank you!

  3. p.g.sharrow October 7, 2018 at 7:12 am

    I have the same problem and have no Idea how to fix it except for you to unsubscribe to the service

  4. free v bucks nintendo switch season 9 September 10, 2019 at 5:36 am

    Hello! I know this is kind of off topic but I was wondering if you knew where I could find a captcha plugin for my comment form? I’m using the same blog platform as yours and I’m having trouble finding one? Thanks a lot!

    Reply; If you really examined my blog you would know I don’t use that thing…pg

  5. Simon Derricutt September 11, 2019 at 5:02 am

    pg – just occasionally, spam is useful. Made me look at this article again.

    One of the things I worked out in the intervening time is that, since the waves move at some limited speed, the force that wave can exert changes direction with the position on the wave. This works as well with sound waves (longitudinal) as EM waves (transverse). Momentum transfers are force multiplied by time. Since the force exerted by the wave changes direction relative to the force being put in, then the only situation in which momentum is truly conserved is when we’re using an unchanging field. When momentum is transferred by a wave, it is not necessarily conserved.

    For your electrical pulse, the rate of change at a particular point determines the size of the force it can exert. The phase change (because of the distances involved) will be important in determining the direction of the force.

    Whether or not there’s an Aether, we can in fact measure the effects of an electric or magnetic field, and the force it produces on a charged particle such as an electron, proton (or nucleus as a collection of charged and uncharged particles). There’s also the speed-of-light time delay between a current producing a magnetic field and *something* responding to that magnetic field some distance away.

    When you’re using a Tesla coil to produce the electrical wave, then the wavelength will depend on the frequency of oscillation of the coil. By getting the system into resonance, you get much larger voltages and currents than for a non-resonant load, which means that the forces involved will be much larger (by the Q of the system) than a non-resonant system.

    We’re thus getting to a situation where by putting a frequency into one part of the system that’s 1/4 wave phase difference to another part, and where the distance between those two parts is also 1/4 wave, that by the time the magnetic wave from part 1 hits part 2 it’s in one phase relationship, and when the wave from part 2 hits part 1 then it’s 180° different phase. The forces on both are in the same directions, rather than being equal and opposite. This is pretty simple and is easily derived from the standard textbooks.

    It’s not really “kicking the Aether” here that does the job. It’s the phase relationships of the two parts of the system relative to the spacing between them, so that the forces produced are not equal and opposite but instead equal and in the same direction.

    Depending on precisely how your disk reacts that might happen, though I think you might need to get the frequency right in order to see any large effect. You need to have the various parts of the system in resonance, and of course at the voltages and currents (and low inductances) you’re using even a few pF of the surroundings may change the frequencies enough to go out of resonance.

    Without the resonances, the forces involved will be very small. For a test-case with 100mW of 5.8GHz RF it worked out around 0.1 micronewton. Very hard to measure that. Still, with resonances added that could maybe be multiplied up, and waveguides can have a Q of 10k or more. Almost getting to enough to measure then. I think this is why the EMDrive produces a thrust, since there is some interesting wavefront shapes inside it and the phase relationships of the magnetic field and the skin currents may well be enough to produce a unidirectional thrust. Looks like it doesn’t need any really complex explanation, just a realisation that though a constant field is conservative, a changing field isn’t because the speed of light is finite and not infinite.

  6. p.g.sharrow September 12, 2019 at 7:53 pm

    @Simon; I am also glad that I decided to allow that spam to post, It was almost acceptable. 😎
    I read your essay 3 times to grasp it all. ?? maybe.
    I think your observation of shape and wave guides is spot on, but I think the useful effect is external rather then internal. Your back of the envelope engineering is a bit beyond me in the electronics involved ,but I would suggest we should think in about 10 meters or 40 feet in size for the active shape in a real device. My 3 meter disk is the minimum size that I hoped would give a measurable outcome.
    Voltage stress into the environment will give the most effect in it. and the shorter the wave length the closer the standing wave will be to the surface of the active element. The inverse square law really bites into the useful energy as you get very far away from the skin….pg

  7. Simon Derricutt September 13, 2019 at 2:59 am

    pg – I’ve been learning a lot about how to deal with RF over the last year. It always was a black art (that’s why there were never many true RF engineers, and they got paid a lot) but once something has been designed and shown to work, a replication of that also works. It does however need to be accurate enough, and the odd 100 microns can be the difference between something that works and something that doesn’t.

    With RF, using the same shape and geometry and shrinking the size simply means you need to use a higher frequency to get the same results. The impedance of each part depends on the geometry and the dielectric constant of the insulators. As such, if you think it’ll work at 10m diameter, but can only build 3m diameter, you need a higher frequency. I can’t remember what frequency you’re actually using, but of course sparks have a wide range of frequencies in them anyway. The problem with sparks is however that that wide range of frequencies may not have a high power in the frequency you actually want, so most of the power input won’t do anything useful.

    Within your glassfibre, the waves travel slower (ratio is the square root of the dielectric constant, which will be between 4 and 6 depending on the glass to resin ratio, so around half the velocity) and it’s not going to be easy to work out how the wavefronts travel across the disk. Still, the basic idea will be to produce a charged surface in an electric field where, as the wave travels, when the field changes polarity then the polarity of the charged surface will change as well. The charged surface will thus see a force in the same direction whether it’s charged +ve or -ve.

    What needs to be done is to find out at what frequency that will happen in your disk, and then use just that frequency (since other frequencies will either not produce that single-direction force or, worse, produce a force that changes direction at some beat frequency and thus average to zero).

    I’m working at a much higher frequency (around 5.8GHz) because it’s quite easy to buy transmitters and amplifiers in that range because of the drone craze. A loop antenna for that is around 4.2mm diameter, and to get that in resonance I need a capacitance of 0.0775pF. The wavelength in air is around 52mm. Looking at the resonant cavity, the largest dimension is around 42mm, and the problem is in getting a high enough Q. I’m using Silver-plated brass for that. Fairly close by now to having all the ducks in a row and being able to test it out and see if there’s any force produced. Get it all tuned up at a few mW and then once I’m sure that the tuning is right and I won’t release the magic smoke from the transmitter I can run it at around 3W or so.

    The thing about this is that it’s really independent of whether or not Aether exists. That also applies to your disk. For the disk, we know that a charged surface will experience a force in an electric field, so if you can ensure that the surface always has the right charge to produce an upwards force then it will work (the field and the charge change at the same frequency and in the right phase relationship). Same with the microwave version I’m testing, in that putting a current-carrying wire in a magnetic field will produce a force, and so if the field changes polarity and the current changes polarity at the same time, then the force will be in the same direction. I’ve gone to magnetic fields here because it’s easier to get a larger force using low voltages (so it’s a lot safer than huge Tesla coils) but the principles are basically the same. This doesn’t depend on any particular theory being true or not, but on experimental evidence that a charge in a field sees a force in one direction, and that a current in a magnetic field sees a force in one direction. After all, that’s how we define the fields and measure them.

    The other thing about using a resonant cavity is that those microwaves are enclosed, and the cavity shields me from them. It’s rather nice that the Q of the cavity also gives far stronger fields, too, and it’s also not going to be affected by stray capacitances in the environment. With the disk, you don’t get those benefits. The upside of the cavity resonator is that it takes far less materials to make it, the downside is that it needs to be accurate to less than 100 microns, which is a little difficult and takes time.

    Logic says it ought to work, so it’s down to getting the experimental details right.

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